UNIVERSITY BLOGS: The Shocker vs. Killer Moth
The Shocker vs. Killer Moth (Marvel Comics vs. DC Comics)
By me/Ok_University_6641
By AGtheOG123
Herman Schultz, The Shocker
and Drury Walker, Killer Moth
These two low level crooks may be overlooked by their fellow criminals and their adversaries, but that doesn't mean they can't be threats! So who would win if they came to conflict? That's what this blog is made to figure out.
Before We Start...
While for Shocker, it's easy to narrow what will be used for him down to all stuff within Earth-616, Killer Moth is significantly more difficult due to the numerous universe shattering events with DC. But after some research, I've come to the conclusion that for this blog, all versions of Drury Walker/Cameron Van Cleer from the many "main" timelines of DC will be used, as DC all characters in the main canon remember all of their many universe lives as one. The exception of this is Charaxes, as that's blatantly a non-standard form for Killer Moth, and isn't "truly" the character (he literally had to sell his soul to become it). This essentially makes his entire mainline history comped by default, and a "true" version not feasible, so using everything is fair game.
Background
The Shocker
Herman Schultz was once just a small time safe cracker making his way through life by stealing cash throughout an assortment of heists. But one day he was caught and sent to prison. Being the third time he was sent to the slammer, Herman decided to make the most of a turbulent situation. Due to his entrapment in the prison workshop, nobody would suspect Herman would be working on a device capable of not only breaking him out of prison, but bringing his heists to the next level. While his initial design was large and put his life at risk, he would quickly refine the design while out of prison. Turning his prototype into his trademark Vibro-Gauntlets! Using this powerful tools, he would enter a new era of his life. The era of....the Shocker! As Shocker, he went about many successful....and unsuccessful crimes, alongside taking part of many teams such as the Sinister Seven, The Masters Of Evil, and the Sinister Syndicate. But throughout it all, there was one man who kept him with a spree of failure--Spider-Man! Since Spider-Man's first encounter with the Shocker, he has clashed with the bumbling villain on several occasions. And while most of the time Shocker's plans would end up in failure due to the Wall-Crawler, and other similar menacing super heroes, he would stand to come back again and again, determined to claim victory and riches for himself. No matter how much these vigilantes would taunt and haunt his nightmares. And he has....on occasion. He has become part of a gang, and the maggia, and has scored some minor wins here and there. But eventually, his life would come to an end. As his distant relation to one Mary Jane Watson would have him targeted by the serial killer Torment. In the end, no matter his success or failure, no matter his life of crime, no matter how much he feared being put down by a vigilante one day, he would lose his life not because of something he had control over. But rather, something he never even knew about. He may have been a petty criminal, but he went out like a victim.
Killer Moth
Drury Walker, or, if you go by his alias, Cameron Van Cleer, was once, a meer convict in a prison, reading magazines of a special man....a....Batman you could call him. This reading for years in jail would sink inspiration into Drury Walker's heart. If Batman was the costumed protector for civilians, he would become a costumed protector for criminals like him. The Anti-Batman. So, to fulfill his role, he would get a cave, a car, and several other assorted things had by Batman over the years. But his wouldn't be Bat themed....no. He would be the counter to a bat; a....moth? Ok so not a counter. But still special in his own right! Drury would now go by the name Killer Moth. Becoming a reoccurring thorn in Batman's, and more importantly, Batgirl's side. But despite how much he dedicated himself to become the definitive anti-Batman and protector of criminals, he never got recognition. He would constantly be mocked and laughed at for his many failures. To the point of having nightmares about it. His services were unwanted, his pathetic history and many lossess against the Batfamily boating against him. He has joined up with other villains on occasion, but yet, still almost always ends up losing.
But despite this constantly thwarting of his plans, he does not give up. He keeps going no matter how much he's looked down upon. Because one day, Drury Walker, the Killer Moth, will see glorious victory. Even if it kills him!
Experience & Skill
The Shocker
While he may be a crook now, Shocker was once an expert safecracker. But after he was sent to prison, he used his great inventor mind to create his Vibro-Gauntlets! Even not considering those gauntlets though, he is still a skilled combatant. Not just because of the fact he is trained with firearms, but also through straight up brawling. Showing this not only through his strategizing against Spider-Man in fights, but also more directly such as when he easily took out two armed guards with a broom. He is also good at mathematics, capable of doing several equations to map out the trajectory he would be sent after using his Vibro-Gauntlets to launch himself forward. He also is a smart planner and craftsman, literally building a gigantic Kevin Mccallistered lair in what couldn't have been more than a few hours just to be petty. In this evil trap filled lair he also showed off another minor, but notable skill, that being his agility. As he was jumping swiftly about it with ease.
Killer Moth
While Killer Moth may be seen as a fool, he is actually quite cunning. It is implied he is the one who made his many gadgets, including stuff like a modified car and a teched out helmet. He decked out his cave, with him notably making a crime lab. He has even outsmarted Batman, tricking him into thinking he fell several yards, deceiving him so he wouldn't know he was cut as Killer Moth, and and making him believe he had died. He has shown smart and tech savvy enough to booby trap Batgirl's motorcyle then get away in at most a few minutes. He is a good climber, as he has climbed to great heights seemingly without difficulty, which is backed up by his character bio stating him to be an Olympic level athlete and trained hand to hand fighter and Batman's own file on him which states similar.
Equipment
The Shocker
Vibro-Gauntlets
His iconic and powerful shock gloves that are the reason he can contend with Spider-Man! They can cause violent vibrations, even indirectly to things nearby, that have the additional capacity to propel him forward and upward at high speeds and short out electronics. The vibrating power that they emit can be turned on and off and even have their strength dialed by the controls on the side of them (although said controls have been moved to not be easily accessible to enemies). Likely in a similar way, he can change its effect from its more standard “vibrational” mode to an electro-shock mode that makes his gauntlets shoot electricity. Their power even allows Shocker to amplify his attacks, making him a much bigger physical threat as well. While it may seem easy to simply take away his gauntlets, they're booby trapped to remotely detonate at the press of a button on his side, and he has spare Vibro-Gauntlets if needed. Recently, Shocker upgraded his gauntlets to be able to emit debilitating brown noise and a sonic shield that can better deflect projectiles, as well as having a passive sonic shield on the gauntlets themselves, making his defensive options less limited. He also upgraded them at some point to do sonic damage.
Super-Suit
His suit is heavily designed around his gauntlets. Its foam lined fabric and heavy boots absorb his shocks so he isn't damaged by them. And its belt contains a lifetime battery to fuel the gauntlets. But that doesn't mean it doesn't have some additional features. It has a built-in gadget that makes him constantly vibrate, with said vibrations making him slippery to the touch, able to free himself from sticky entrapping substances such as Spider-Man's webbing, and capable of bouncing and sliding attacks off of him. Whether it be punches, electricity, or even bullets. His suit’s natural vibrations on top of that triple his natural strength, making him a much more physically imposing threat. He also has upgraded his super-suit to make him capable of easily tanking even Spider-Man's attacks without flinching and give an extremely powerful shock to people who attempt to attack him and interact with him through his passive shocking field. As well as make himself capable of flying high in the sky for aerial attacks. A seperate upgrade also allowed him to shoot his blasts without his gauntlets.
Guns
The Shocker has oddly enough used guns a couple times. Whether it be a pistol and a specialized powerful blaster (above), or a rifle, they aren't unlikely for him to use if he feels it's needed. A choice which is helped by his training in the use of firearms.
Cars
Disguise
The classic trench coat and fedora combo. They make him….somewhat more inconspicuous.
Suit
Yes Shocker we see the fit.
Bleach
MY EYES!
Binoculars
Great for seeing things from afar. Assuming it's just about as good as any other pair of binoculars, they should allow Shocker to see things up close from 90 yards away.
Ressurection Stone
Previously owned by a league of necromancers, it allows the user to revive dead people….into zombiotes. While said zombiotes can be turned back to normal via the use of heavy sound similar to normal symbiotes, they can still infect people into zombiotes just like how normal zombies do.
Bag Of Tools
A bag full of pipes, wrenches, and other miscellaneous tools.
Bowling Ball
Nice throw.
Flashlight
A good ol’ heavy duty flashlight. Lets Shocker see in the dark that's for sure.
Re-Compressor
Killer Moth
Cocoon-Gun
Killer Moth's most iconic, entrapping, weapon of choice! It can shoot stylized cocoons, even ones big enough to cover an entire ship. It is strong enough to restrain the likes of Batman who can casually toss away large pieces of concrete and even full on jeeps speeding at him (side note, fucking what). Despite its name, shooting cocoons is not all it can do. It can also fire tranquilizers that instantly knock people out, large explosive rounds, and sticky grapple hooks.
Web-Gun
Similar to his Cocoon-Gun except it shoots webs instead.
Gimmick Gun
A gun designed by Calender Man with a couple for Killer Moth to use. It can tranquilize people, knocking them out, and it can make a flashbang to blind people. It also can just shoot normal bullets.
Upgraded Guns
If you thought his gimmick gun was crazy, wait till you see what these bad boys have in store. They can be powered by the kinetic energy he is hit with, and have a crap ton of options. Since they're so many, I'm gonna list them.
- Hard Bouncy Balls - Fast and tough bouncy balls that can hurt and slip up people
- Restraining Ropes - Ropes that sense physical reactions and adjust their trajectory accordingly, then expands to fit the target and squeezes tightly around them
- Electricity Web - A seeming web of electricity that is hard to dodge
- Freeze Blasts - Freezes the target in a solid block of ice
- Green Gassy Phermone - Massive green gas that can cover an area in a phermone that attracts his blue moths.
- Blue Moths - The afformentioned blue moths are poisonous if eaten and constantly flowing with electricity powerful enough to destroy large portions of concrete. Killer Moth can seemingly control them at will to do what he pleases
Super-Suit
Mothmobile
To match Batman's Batmobile, Killer Moth would have a Mothmobile! It obviously is good for driving around, but it can do more than that as well. Its antennae can warn of approaching danger on it's dashboard radar screen, and near said dashboard, it houses a more standard exaust gas control, as well as an irritant gas that makes people choke and makes their eyes burn, an anesthetic gas that knocks people out, and a grease to spill behind the car. An updated version of the car allowed Killer Moth to shoot two shots of cocoons from its front and see signals for him on its radar screen.
Mothcopter
Can be used for aerial transportation and a quick getaway.
Mothmarine
Holy fuck this is awesome. It has homing moth rockets and a moth-secret escape hatch that deploys a moth-row boat. It also has radar like any other submarine. Making it a surprisingly capable underwater vessel.
U-Rent Van
Boooorrring.
Moth Signals
Killer Moth utilizes Moth Signals to know when he is called upon to help other crooks. They show infrared light that only Killer Moth can see using his helmet's glasses. He similarly pitched a Moth-Lantern which was not taken nearly as well, and had a giant singular Moth-Signal.
Dispensable Gun Barrel Liners
They can be equipped to a gun's barrel to make tracing a bullet by its markings impossible.
Gas Mask
It sure is a gas mask.
Steel Strand
Before the development of his wings, Killer Moth utilized a steel strand to swing he could connect to his wing-like cape or simply hold onto to swing about.
Drones
Remotely controlled drones that shoot lasers.
Sulphur
Killer Moth has a container of sulphur in his cave. It was utilzed to make the blinding irritant gas used in his car.
Gas Grenades
Gas grenades able to easily knock people out in seconds.
Revolver
Machine Gun
If you thought a revolver was cool, you're not gonna believe how much work can get done with a machine gun....if Killer Moth could hit his shots.
Sawed-Off Shotgun
To finish off the normal gun trilogy, a shotgun! And he's not afraid to use it.
Throwing Darts
Darts he threw at a picture of Batgirl.
Torch
Miniature Flashlight
Good if you wanna be able to see in the dark on the fly.
Spear
A cool old ass spear he picked up to fight Batman.
Rope
Seperate from his steel strand, Killer Moth has several things of rope he can use to tie others up.
Abilities
The Shocker
none lol
Killer Moth
also none
Resistances
The Shocker
- Anxiety/Fear: Even while his confidence and nerves were shot from months of nightmares he still managed to pool up enough inner strength to combat Spider-Man
- Electricity: His suits natural vibrations can allow him to absorb and blast electricity away from his body
- Brown Noise: Is entirely unaffected by the brown noise his Vibro-Gauntlets emit
Killer Moth
- Electricity: His suit entirely protects him from electricity and cannot be quickly shorted out by it.
Weaknesses
The Shocker
- He has quite a big ego, which especially applies to his fights. As it will cloud his judgement and make him make short sighted mistakes in combat
- His gauntlets can be shorted out to make them not work, and, similarly, dismantled for the same effect
- He is quite weak to attacks to his mind
- Has anger issues
- If his super-suit is taken off the vibrations from his Vibro-Gauntlets will kill him, on top of him losing his strength and durability
- His Vibro-Gauntlets can run out of charge, seemingly tied to the setting and time used
- His Vibro-Gauntlet's passive sonic shield only defeneds against projectiles, it can still be physically taken away
- -SOMEHOW got diffed by Paste Pot Pete….and Boomerang…..and-
Killer Moth
- Is egotistical, which can cause him to make mistakes while fighting and to make huge oversights
- Has a slight anger issue, which can make him slip-up while fighting, not thinking rationally
- Can get hyper focused on one thing, leaving him open to attack.
- His Cocoon-Gun cocoons can be melted away by heat
- His Cocoon-Gun can break on him
- He can't fly properly with two humans worth of weight
- Can get temporarily distracted by light
- Can have his wings taken off (and they still work to be used by others)
Support
The Shocker
The Aftershocks
as Spider-Man), and they also come equipped with built in lights to see in the dark. The Aftershocks additionally have a flying car they can go drive around in.
Killer Moth
Moth-Men
Their have been a few variations of these guys over the years. The original Moth-Men were several men named after stages of moth equipped with Cocoon-Guns of their own. But the Batgirl Year One versions are more normal, being men in suits who have normal guns instead of Cocoon-Guns. There have also been simple men dressed in brown moth suits who have hammers and chainsaws. There have been more versions of them, but those were the most notable.
Giant Moths
Killer Moth has multiple giant moths capable of eating through walls and carrying him and company on their backs. They listen to his every command, so they are loyal to him.
Feats
The Shocker
Overall
- Has defeated zombie hoards on multiple occasions
- Became the new don of the Maggia
- Has had multiple periods of time where he was a hero
- Is a great singer
- Has questionable pizza taste
Power
- Made a fist sized hole in a brick wall with his punch
- Tore through a bug chunk of glass with a double punch
- Made an entire brick wall shake with his attacks
- Shook a building with his shocks
- Blasted Spider-Man through a wall
- Destroyed a judge's bench
- Knocked over a truck then blasted a hole into it
- Violently fragmented a metal wall
- Easily sent several cars flying
- Broke a chimney and busted a hole in a roof in quick succession
- Wrecked an armored truck
- Cratered the ground with a punch
- Made a giant hole in a building
- Just one Vibro-Gauntlet blast is enough to ignite an entire building in an explosion
- Tossed a console piano far (1556.87-2001.69 newtons of force) [Athletic Human lifting strength]
- His blasts were compared by Spider-Man to be like getting kicked by a “King-sized mule” (8,722 newtons of force) [Class 1 Striking Strength]
- His strikes amped by his Vibro-Gauntlets are “a dozen times more potent” (An average human punches with about 70-100 joules, so 840-1200 joules) [Street Level]
- Punched Ms. Marvel far (4.5 kilojoules) [Street Level]
- Knocked a door off its hinges with a lunge (4.58-7.3 kilojoules) [Street Level]
- Made a large explosion with his blasts (15.7 kilojoules) [Wall Level]
- His gauntlet's remote explosion was very powerful (322.8 kilojoules) [Wall Level]
- Destroyed an extremely large portion of a subway tunnel (0.16-1.84 tons of tnt) [Small Building-Building+ Level]
- Can make 10-mile long earthquakes (924 tons of tnt) [Multi-City Block Level]
Speed
- Propelled himself at high speeds using his Vibro-Gauntlets (above)
- Could jump far and fast at Spider-Man
- Dodged his own re-directed blast
- Pushed Peter Quill out of the way of a gunshot
- Dodged pistol bullets after they were fired (~375 m/s) [Supersonic]
Durability
- Easily tanked his own blast re-directed at him (his durability scales to his AP)
- Was merely knocked out by Beetle's repulsor blast
- Survived being dropped into the ocean while trapped within a car's trunk
- Was thrown through a window
- Was slammed hard enough into a car to heavily damage it yet was no worse for wear
- Was smashed into a pillar hard enough to break it
- Was thrown through a counter
- Was hit by a car yet left uninjured
- Survived a large warehouse explosion (2.6-41.58 megajoules) [Wall-Small Building Level]
- His body was able to handle the strain of his ever increasing vibrational power up to that point, which was already 10-100 times his usual power at that point, and enough to wipe out the power from an entire building. (0.025-0.059 tons of tnt) [Small Building Level] [DEBATEABLE, SEE BEFORE VERDICT]
Killer Moth
Overall
- Is (sometimes) a millionare
- Has tested Batman's intelligence
- Found out Bruce Wayne is Batman (before his memory of it was removed)
- Has a cute cat
- Aura
Power
Speed
Durability
- Was sucker-punched by Jason Todd with a pipe (above)
- Was tossed hard into a brick wall
- Survived a car crash with no injuries
- Was dived through a window by Batgirl
- Fell several feet into a dumpster
- Tanked a point blank explosion
- Survived a giant plummet downward
- Was hit hard on the head by several pipes
Scaling
The Shocker
The Wall-Crawlers
While not one of Spider-Man's greatest foes, he has still shown able to contend with Spider-Man physically pretty consistently, meaning he should be at least somewhat on par with his strength and durability. Marvel handbooks even support this, as his durability is put above Spider-Man's, and his energy projection is put at the same tier as Spider-Man's strength. But him scaling to Spider-Man's speed doesn't hold up the same, as Spider-Man has shown to pretty easily dodge and out-maneuver him. Even if you argue that's due to Spider-Man's Spider-Sense, it has been directly stated that Spider-Man's quick speed is tied to his Spider-Sense, rather than him being able to utilize that speed at will. On top of all of that, Marvel handbooks mentioned before have Shocker at lower speed than Spider-Man. So by all accounts Shocker scales in all ways but speed. Obviously, since Peter is comparable to Miles and Shocker actually fought pretty well against both Spider-Men at once, Shocker scales to Miles in the same way.
- Spider-Man (Peter Parker):
- Spider-Man (Miles Morales):
- Spider-Man has fought Morlun for 12 hours straight, a character who one-shotted MvC Spider-Man. And, Spider-Man fought equally against Insomniac Spider-Man (although that comic is dubiously canon) and Otto using Peter's body wasn't especially weaker than Insomniac Spider-Man in their short fight. Considering Peter an Miles are relative in the Insomniac-verse as well, both Peter and Miles should scale to their counterparts and (dubiously, will get into later) upscale the late great MvC Spidey.
- MVC Spider-Man: (DEBATEABLE, SEE BEFORE VERDICT)
- Insomniac Spider-Men:
Spider-Man Rogues Gallery
Through his scaling to the Spider-Men he should scale to their rogues as well. Supported by his gauntlets severally injuring Sandman. And unlike Spider-Man, there is no Spider-Sense that dictates Shocker shouldn't scale to their speed. Shocker won't be getting scaled to the Symbiotes as they're generally above Peter most of the time (hell, Shocker shock's were ineffective against Venom AP wise). And he will obviously not be scaled to someone like Morlun who beat the shit out of Peter.
- Electro:
- Sandman:
- Misc. Rogues:
Marvel Street-Tiers
Through his scaling to the Spiders he already gets this, but there is also a lot of supporting evidence. Shocker has attacked Punisher before he could attack back or dodge, dodged Ms. Marvel's attacks and took heavy hits from her, clashed with Force equally, and boxed with Luke Cage even drawing blood from him. So yeah he totally scales to street-tiers.
- Wolverine:
- Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan):
- Moon Knight:
- Elektra:
- Deadpool:
- Punisher:
- Captain America:
- Matt "Walk Em' Down" Murdock:
- Iron Fist (pre-amp):
- Power Man:
- Beast:
Tiger Shark & Namor [Debatable, see before verdict]
Shocker took a bunch of hits from Tiger Shark, whose strength was compared to Namor's in the same instance. This is a questionable reason to scale Shocker to them physically but we'll get into that later.
- Tiger Shark:
- Namor:
Killer Moth
The Batfamily
While he is technically still below them in overall stats, that is no reason he shouldn't scale to their feats, as he has restrained Batman momentarily, combatted Red Hood in the air, and even straight up defeated Batgirl in combat. He also pretty regularly keeps up with them on foot and in combat so he should scale to their speed too.
- Batman:
- Nightwing:
- Misc. Batfamily:
Batman Rogues Gallery
Obviously, as he has fought the Batfamily, he should reasonably scale to their rogues. He additionally has some supporting evidence to this, as he has stunned Riddler and made him bleed with just one punch, and, more notably, was stated in Batman's files to be an equal or higher threat level than several of Batman's rogues.
- Killer Croc casually busted open a wall (14.1 megajoules) [Wall Level+] and lifted a large metal pipe (144255.8215 newtons of force) [Class 25]
- Deadshot tanked a house explosion (0.01 tons of tnt) [Small Building Level]
- KGBeast tanked an explosion (0.096 tons of tnt) [Small Building Level]
- Penguin survived a gigantic explosion (0.1 tons of tnt) [Small Building Level]
- Joker survived a big explosion (0.47 tons of tnt) [Building Level]
- Bane survived and swam away from a boat explosion injury-less seemingly with no venom (0.98 tons of tnt) [Building Level]
- Firefly withstood an up close explosion (2.169 tons of tnt) [Large Building Level]
- Harley Quinn was mostly unaffected by Moonrock's gravity increasing which made a crater (4 tons of tnt) [Large Building Level]
- Deathstroke:
- Blockbuster:
- Mr. Freeze:
- Catwoman:
DC Street-Tiers
While he doesn't interact with many outside of the Batfamily often, his scaling to the Batfamily and their rogues, alongside the minor tidbit that he did fight equally with Kate Spencer, a woman who uses Manhunter tech and who has defeated her superhuman dad and even sparred with and stunned Wonder Woman, as well take a beating from Green Arrow AND Batman pretty well, shows he should most definitely still scale to them.
- Vandall Savage:
- Black Canary:
- Green Arrow:
- Katana:
- Adam Strange:
- Misc. Street-Tiers:
Before Verdicts
Laser Feats
Just gonna do a quick debunk of some laser feats that I've seen used without argument. As well as back up some other ones. This won't be including stuff that is called "light-speed" as those aren't meant to be lasers directly.
Sandman dodges Red Skull's laser
While technically nothing is directly wrong with the laser in question, it also doesn't show any properties of a laser besides going straight, and it isn't even called one. For all we know that is just some type of plasma or other sort of energy blast. Debunked.
Moon Knight dodged laser blasts
They do reflect, are straight, and burn, but they also show force and aren't called lasers, they're called "Mystic Bolts". Debunked.
Batman dodges heat vision
While it does reflect off a mirror and goes straight, it blatantly shows force which lasers don't have, as they burn things. Debunked.
Azrael cut lasers
They bounce off his sword and are straight. They aren't called lasers but they visually look like lasers and act like them so it should be fine.
Catwoman dodges two lasers nearby
The laser are straight beams that sizzle the ground. They don't display any kind of force and are directly called a "laser". So yeah this is usable.
Katana deflects laser
Shocker is insanely durable?
You may have noticed before scaling even started, Shocker had a Small Building Level durability feat put as debatable. So how come such a minor feat is mentioned as debatable? Well, the problem lies not so much in the calc, but rather, and more importantly, in the fact it was indicated he was operating at 10-100x his power at that point, in which is body seemed fine. To put that in perspective, ignoring the debatable feats and scaling we'll get to later, a 10-100x version of his best scaling would be 27-270 gigatons of tnt. Which is Island-Large Island level. So that puts into question, is this reasoning, well, reasonable? And the answer is....no. Not only is this power bonus a very rough estimate by Shocker, but it also isn't directly indicated to be taking a full toll on his body yet. For all we know, if it got to the point indicated by Shocker in the comic (destroy New York and kill Shocker), that would be the time the power bonus takes a toll on his body. So, while there is maybe a way to reason this works, it has way to many unanswered questions to work.
Multi-Continental Spider-Man?!
In Superior Spider-Man #8, Spider-Man withstands what is said to be the power of a newborn star, which came out to 2.3 exatons of tnt, a Multi-Continental feat. Impressive, but does it stand? Well it is kinda hard to decide. While the calc itself is fine enough, it isn't really consistent with anything Peter or even other street-tiers have done before. But there is a way to safely determine it, and that's by looking at the character whose casual power output Spider-Man is tanking, Estrella. If she exploded (which should be at least somewhat more powerful), the blast threatened to take out a quarter-mile square, which is 1 kiloton of tnt, which is Small Town Level. Muuuuuucchhh lower. Considering, once again, her explosion should be more powerful than her casual output, it stands to reason that his casual output cannot possibly be in the Multi-Continental levels. At best, you can maybe argue they're equivalent, in which this would mean Spider-Man tanked 1 kiloton of tnt....yay....
Brown Dwarf Marvel Street-Tiers?
So, through a minor bit of chainscaling, street-tiers (or at least Spider-Man and his foes) should massively upscale MVC Spider-Man, who has defeated Galactus who has a feat that gets to 1.6-3.29 quettatons of tnt (Brown Dwarf Level). He also has a country level feat to scale to but that is less important. The problem? Holy shit this is one of the biggest outliars oat 😭. It isn't consistent at all with anything that isn't vicious chainscaling to Heralds, and the MVC games don't have a full, consistent timeline of events. Rather each game is relatively seperate from one another. So there is no indication whatever version of MVC Spider-Man Morlun beat is that powerful (and Morlun should obviously just contextually not be a Galactus level threat). So using MVC Spider-Man for chainscaling is unfeasible.
Did he actually tank the orbital missiles?
This one seems obvious at first glance, but it's actually more nuanced on further inspection. While yes, Deadpool is KNOWN for his extremely potent healing factor, it's actually likely it wasn't used here. Not only would it be kinda odd to have him regenerate off panel, it is also of note that Deadpool's healing factor can take 2 minutes to regrow a finger, and 20 minutes to regrow his body, as well an additional several hours to regenerate from being turned to ash. If the orbital missiles were actually far above his normal durability, he would've taken at least half an hour to a couple hours to regenerate from it. So considering the fact that in the comic he literally returns in a couple of seconds to a minute max in the comic, there is absolutely no reason to believe he regenerated from it.
Beast makes everyone MFTL+?
If you haven't heard or seen, there's quite a big attempt by some to get Marvel street-tiers to MFTL or higher. So does Beast do it? Maybe, but probably not. Not only is this feat a lot lower than other MFTL+ feats street-tiers "scale to" (which I won't be mentioning due to their ridiculousness and general incorrectness in my opinion), but it also isn't consistent with most street-tier feats, and is questionable to even scale to them in part due to that fact. The other part being that it is odd to even 100% consider this a movement speed or perception feat, as he says "So in those final nanoseconds before the explosion ship, I managed to download his personality into a survival module he formed about the lot of us." This likely doesn't mean he had straight up done it in nanoseconds, but rather had bearly skimped by before it was too late. He had nanoseconds left after. While I do not think either interpretation is foolproof or guaranteed to be true, I do not personally find it consistent and accurate enough to use.
So does Shocker really scale to Namor?
Absolutely not 😂. Namor shows feats way above anything Shocker ever hope to dish out. Even the hits he took from Tiger Shark were heavily implied to eventually be able to kill him, and Tiger Shark has easily beaten Shocker later on anyway. Couple that with the fact Tiger Shark lowkey jobs sometimes and you've got a recipe for extreme and obvious wank.
Is Black Wind scaling valid?
This feat has already been well talked about before, but I will give a basic breakdown for those who aren't in the know.
The calculation itself, by all means, is perfectly fine. It is accurate for what Black Wind did. One of the problems of this feat stems from whether Black Wind's storm is just hax or also applies to his AP and Durability. And yeah it totally does, as controlling the storm put a physical strain on his body for as long as he was able to keep it up until he died from successfully containing a toxic poison. But, while Batman could draw blood from and combat Black Wind, it was still clear that Black Wind was at least somewhat more powerful due to the fact Batman had to get him by suprise and was grabbed by the neck and held hadd against the wall quickly after the attacks. This is supported by a fight he had against Cassandra, another Batfamily member, where he pretty much toyed with Cassandra during their intial fight. But, the fact that they can still somewhat contend with Black Wind shows that they aren't massively below him in power. So where does Killer Moth fit in this? Well, considering his upgraded suit allowed him to outright defeat Batgirl with relative ease, it's safe to assume he could, at least with that suit he has as part of his kit, scale to the feat. Not bad for ol' Mothy.
Small Country DC Street-Tiers?
Deku Artwork by GG_Doki
Yeah so basically, Green Arrow has a feat in which he survived a massive explosion in space, which came out to over 2 teratons of tnt by both people who calced it, which is in the Small Country range. The problem? Well its that not only that this is entirely inconsistent with any other showings by Ollie and other comparable street-tiers, but the fact that the ship was still mostly in one piece. And while Green Arrow is alive, the villain he was fighting, and who was JUST kicking his ass, was completely incinerated and killed. Both of these context clues paint the picture that the blast wasn't that powerful, and/or the villain tanked most of the blast. While you could maybe nitpick those points, the fact of the matter is that there is significantly more evidence against than for the feat being valid....which has zero evidence outside of it being calculated as such.
Art
By me/Ok_University_6641
Both by spookiestghost
Verdicts
Stats
We'll break this down by lifting strength, plus the low and high ends for AP/Durability and Speed.
For lifting strength, Shocker has it in spades. Shocker has multiple feats he can scale to that get to Class G, meanwhile the best Moth has is a much more feeble Class K to Class K+. A whole class below Shocker. Even if you consider their lower ends, Shocker has stuff from Class 5-50, while Killer Moth has stuff from Class 10-25. Clearly still lower overall.
For AP and Durability, on the lower end, they are relatively equal. Both get from around Small-Large Building Level. While technically Killer Moth gets higher in Small Building (0.1 tons of tnt vs. 0.2 tons of tnt) and Shocker gets higher in Large Building (8.6 tons of tnt vs. 4.99 tons of tnt), the fact of the matter is that, generally, they're relative. But things get much more one-sided once we get to high ends. Shocker can get anywhere from Mountain-Island level, which is much higher than Killer Moth's much more pitiful Town-Large Town level scaling. A difference of about 96008x. More than enough to potentially one-shot Killer Moth. And it can be tripled using the Re-Compressor (although that'd also knock Shocker out after a couple seconds). Even if you don't buy Shocker getting that high, he has several Large Town level ends, of which he gets further into the level than Killer Moth does, and of course several feats above that but under Mountain. Safe to say Shocker is more than enough powerful for Killer Moth.
Now for the finally physical stats, speed. For low ends, Shocker gets from Subsonic-Hypersonic, while Killer Moth only gets from Subsonic-Supersonic. A small, but still notably gap. But this could be made up for if Killer Moth had a significant edge in his higher ends. Both get from Relativistic-FTL, but Killer Moth gets further into Relativistic (0.4c vs. 0.62c) and much further into FTL (1.56c vs. 4.3c) than Shocker does. Giving him quite a big edge in speed. This means that Killer Moth should solidly have the speed advantage. Although, due to Shocker's lifting strength and AP, he still should get stats by a 2-1 ratio. Stats go to The Shocker.
Skill & Experience
These guys might be considered "dumb" by their opponents, but they are much smarter than they lead on. As such, first things first is to compare their intelligence. Shocker is very inventive. Being the creator of his Vibro-Gauntlets and capable of making an entire house full of traps. He also is very mathematically smart and capable of using that math iq on the fly. Killer Moth is similar, being indicated to have created his crime lab and maybe even his gear. But he has also tricked and out-smarted Batman while committing his crimes, whose the "World's Greatest Detective". Both are highly intelligent despite how they're viewed, and while you could argue for either of them, it's fair to say they're generally relative. In terms of battle intelligence, Shocker is no slouch. He strategies in fights well, and can even take down armed guards. He also is trained with guns although he doesn't use them much. But in comparison, Killer Moth is more impressive. He is a trained Olympic-level athelte and hand-to-hand combatant. While Shocker is kinda agile, he definitely isn't Olympic level agile. Sure, Killer Moth has an ego and anger issues, but so does Shocker, so it's not like he can get an edge because of it. Shocker does technically have more experience fighting different superheroes other than his "main" one, Killer Moth still has fought other heroes and in general neither have really fought someone too much like the other. Overall, it's close, but Killer Moth's battle iq gives him just the edge he needs. Killer Moth gets Skill & Experience.
Equipment
The deciding category is their equipment. Shocker has less useful equipment, but more than makes up for it with how useful a small amount of his stuff is. His Vibro-Gauntlets and his guns makes Killer Moth taking flight to get the height advantage essentially irrelevant, on top of the fact Shocker can fly himself. His Vibro-Gauntlets and his Super-Suit make Killer Moth's approaching options very limited. While his vibrational shield has been gotten past before, it is still very potent and protects him from ranged attacks from Killer Moth like his several guns, as well as basically invincible to Killer Moth's physical attacks. That combined with his shield he can deploy from his Vibro-Gauntlets can protect him from more hard to contest options from Killer Moth like his freezing, acid, knocks gasses, and Blue Moths. This is not to say Killer Moth is without a way to use his arsenal though, as his helmet can emit antennae-waves that can shred through costumes, an would likely get past any shields as the waves themselves are very likely like radio waves which go through objects (due to the antennae picking up radio waves, it's likely this functions as a reverse, plus they seem to be invisible). And Killer Moth himself could use his speed combined with his knowledge on tech to dismantle Shocker's gloves. Something that has worked on Shocker before, and Killer Moth should definitely be capable of as he has similarly booby trapped technology before, and can go invisible to shadow his approach. Although Shocker does have spares he could potentially get if Killer Moth's ego gives him the leeway to do so, and Killer Moth couldn't steal them due to those spares and the fact they're rigged to explode if Shocker needs to. Shocker could maybe short out some of Killer Moth's tech, but that's indicated to take time. And Killer Moth's electricity proof armor and bendable wings would allow him to shield any tech Shocker tries that on. Plus the fact that Killer Moth's tech is not needed for him to hurt Shocker, as it is simply something he could help use to win. Unlike Shocker's Vibro-Gauntlets and Super-Suit, that are his way of winning. While Shocker can still fight without his gauntlets, it'd leave him defenseless against being frozen, burned with acid, or knocked out by gas to be killed afterward. And if his Super-Suit was ripped away enough by Killer Moth's antennae-waves, he'd be left a completely defenseless normal human. Since his Vibro-Gauntlets would kill him if used without it. There is one way Shocker could mitigate Killer Moth stripping him of his main gear though, and that's the fact that his Vibro-Gauntlets can emit debilitating brown noise. If used, it'd stun Killer Moth, and make him sick, which would allow Shocker to have an opening to kill Killer Moth with his superior AP. It's also something Shocker had said he used prior to using it on Spider-Man, so it's not like he would be unlikely to use it in a fight over other options. He is a strategic mind afterall. So it all comes down to whether Killer Moth would be sooner to get rid of Shocker's Vibro-Gauntlets or Super-Suit before Shocker uses the brown noise to secure the one hit he needs. And honestly, while it is EXTREMELY close, I must say Killer Moth's options would be something he'd be sooner to use. And it all comes down to his superior battle iq, which would likely clue him in to shut down Shocker's equipment before Shocker thought of how to get a solid full powered hit on Killer Moth, which is something unlikely to happen since he usually doesn't go all out intially, especially on someone on Killer Moth, and doesn't have the needed speed to get a consistent shot out on Killer Moth if he realizes Killer Moth is a threat soon enough. Also, even if he did go all out on every shot to kill Moth, he'd run out of battery very quick and have to swap Vibro-Gauntlets. So with that said, by a razor thin margin, Killer Moth has the advantage in Equipment.
Conclusion
The Shocker
Advantages:
- +Way stronger and more durable
- +Has fought more varied opponents
- +Vibro-Gauntlets and Super-Suit counter most of Killer Moth's equipment...
- +Could use his brown noise to get a one shot on Killer Moth...
- +Could short out Killer Moth's electronics...
Equal:
- =Intelligence
- =Egotistical and short-sighted
- =Anger issues
- =Sick ass car
Disadvantages:
- -Slower
- -Worse fighter
- -Less agile
- -Worse battle iq
- -Vibro-Gauntlets could run out of battery
- -...but can be stripped of them leaving him vunerable and even powerless
- -...but might not go for it soon enough
- -...but that takes time and would likely be defended from doing
- -Spider-Man: Homecoming
Killer Moth
Advantages:
- +Faster
- +A better fighter
- +Superior agility
- +Better battle iq
- +Antennae-waves could get past Shocker's defenses and strip him of his suit
- +Could dismantle Shocker's Vibro-Gauntlets
Equal:
- =Intelligence
- =Egotistical and short-sighted
- =Anger issues
- =Sick ass car
Disadvantages:
- -Much weaker and less durable
- -Shocker's Super-Suit and Vibro-Gauntlets would counter the vast majority of his equipment
- -It's game over if he is hit with Shocker's brown noise
- -Could potentially have his tech shorted out
- -Lame ass Charaxes
Final Tally
- The Shocker: 0
- Killer Moth: 1 - Me, myself, and I
Next Time
While not made soley by me, the long awaited Horror Movie Slasher Battle Royale is almost ready to be posted. I have to see if BCCBATTLES responds (he's been offline for awhile now) but hopefully I can still get the blog posted.
I also plan to host another blog poll after that is done with. So stay tuned!
Sources/Credits
- DoubleWork for some Killer Moth gifs
- Shocker Respect Threads (Reddit & partially Comic Vine)
- Manhunter Respect Thread
- Killer Moth Respect Thread
- Batman Wiki
- Deadpool durability page on VSBW
- Joker vs. Green Goblin Blog
- Donatello vs. Spider-Man Blog
- Nightwing vs. Gatchaman Blog
- First Shocker sprite by BigPimp, second ripped by HijodeKrypton
- First Killer Moth sprite by Navs41, second made by dad34853
- AGtheOG123 & RedscreenOfficial for their great TNs
- Spookiestghost for their spectacular sprite art
booooooooooooo killer moth sucks boooooooooooooooooo
ReplyDeleteMy goat is responsible for giving Robin and Star their best episode in Teen Titans, so I don't wanna HEAR IT 😢
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ReplyDeleteCould we remove this btw, it was just more underwhelming version of the comment below
DeleteTHATS MY GGGGGOOOOOAAAAATTTTT RIGHT THERE YES SIR
ReplyDeleteAlso, does the Captain Cold vs Shocker blog change anything for you?
Delete